Authentic Achievements Episode 3 with Special Guest Gavin Snell

Authentic Achievements Episode 3 with Special Guest Gavin Snell

From Bestselling author, currently writing the forthcoming book Authentic Achievements – The 7 Secrets to Building Brave Belief, Unstoppable Sales, and Turning Your Leaders Into Talent Magnets for Guaranteed Sustainable Growth, this show shares advice, stories and inspiration to help you achieve exponential growth personally and for your business. Featuring interviews with industry leaders and a separate series on hashtag#confidencehacker to help you build authentic confidence.  

In this episode, I am delighted to be joined by Gavin Snell CEO of WorkNest.  Gavin is a champion of collaboration, inclusivity and the power of people, and his journey is compelling.  In a career spanning 3 completely different industries and 5 different geographies, he brings a wealth of experience in leading successful growth businesses and maintains that it all starts with trust and empowerment.

To find out more about WorkNest please visit www.worknest.com

If you want to find out more check us out at www.kimadelerandall.com or https://lnkd.in/dbXMF6Am or subscribe to our YouTube

Full Transcript

Authentic Achievements Episode 3 with special guest Gavin Snell

Kim-Adele

00:00:12

Hi and welcome to authentic achievements. In this week’s episode, I’ve got the absolute delight of being joined by Gavin Snell. Who’s CEO for work nest. Gavin’s a champion of collaboration and inclusivity and the power of people and his journey is compelling, but I’m going to leave it there and let Gavin say hello and tell us a bit about your journey so far, please.

Gavin Snell

00:00:37

Hi, and wherever you may be. Welcome to the podcast. My name is Gavin Snell. I’m the CEO for a company called work nest, which is an amalgamation of some nine different companies all acquired into the model of PLC group in the course of the last 18 months. Or so prior to that, I worked in the BPO sector, ran a large contact center operations. And then prior to that, within a company called Experian that some may be aware of. So it’s been quite a diverse career. I’ve loved all parts of it for many different reasons. I’ve also learned a lot along the way, and looking forward to leading the work MES business that I’m now responsible for through the course of the next period, as we fuel even further growth.

Kim-Adele

00:01:22

Amazing. So amalgamating nine organizations that must bring with it, some people challenges and some opportunities. How have you worked through those?

Gavin Snell

00:01:36

Well, I think first of all, we entered that period of time with the expectation that we were going to complete that number of acquisitions. So they didn’t just happen by accident. The first thing was to really cement our core values and the way that the workplace we wanted to create based on that. And I happy to talk about that a little bit more, but based on that we wanted to attract companies that shared similar values. So the worst thing to do would have been to acquire and to then look to marry companies that had very different cultural norms and values. And based on that foundation, we’ve then put a whole lot of resources behind what we’ve established as a project office. We’ve set about our challenge by a very inclusive engagement process, inviting people from different businesses, very often traditional competitors to engage widely on looking at all of the processes, the organizational designs and the technologies that we use across our business to form a future, which is more unified so far.

Gavin Snell

00:02:42

So good, it also helps that we’re all businesses that were very relevant and trusted through the period of the last couple of years and naturally grew because of that. But of course we learn every day, you know, every day there’s another tension or another anxiety. We do this in a very kind of inclusive cultural environment that encourages people to speak up when they have concerns or anxieties. We’ve been able to manage this without having to make roles redundant or other things besides. So it’s been an ongoing process and I dare say will continue to challenge us, but I probably would summarize it as we’re succeeding in growing. So our clients value us and we haven’t degraded if you like a service that we offer to clients. And that’s been a really important part of our success as well.

Kim-Adele

00:03:32

I love it. And I also lift that prompted me to something my Nan used to say, which is, you know, every day’s a school day, we continue to learn. Don’t we, I think if you’ve got that mindset and that ethos, which is, you know, w w whatever’s thrown at me as an opportunity to learn, and if I get it a little bit wrong, then I’ll learn how to get it right. And including people in a huge transformation like this is, is crucial, isn’t it? To, to the success of its implementation.

Gavin Snell

00:04:03

Yeah, but I, I suppose it’s probably worth me acknowledging also though that inevitably you end up with some, some difficult compromising situations. There may be duplicated roles. There may be leadership styles that are not conducive. And so we’ve had to act on some of those particular circumstances. And so people have left us. I’d like to think that we’ve done that with the full respect and dignity, particularly because the remaining colleagues across our business. And obviously those that are in the businesses that are most effected are looking at us. They’re watching us as, as leadership teams in how we manage those situations. So you’re absolutely right that, you know, we’ve, we’ve been challenged and, and those, those decisions have sometimes been not so obvious, but, you know, in leadership roles have often found that you’re, you’re, you’re really tested when you’ve got to make difficult judgments and difficult situations. The most important thing that I’ve learned over the years is doing and making those decisions with absolute respect and dignity and treating people just to see what, what others to treat you, if you were in the same situation is a really important part of your leadership style and one that, you know, your dad get robbed because the disengagement force of that can be really, really, really damaging.

Kim-Adele

00:05:18

Yeah, no, I completely get that. And I think what I love about what you’re saying is, is that whole doing everything that we do, it doesn’t mean to say we don’t have to make difficult decisions. It doesn’t mean to say we don’t have to be brave and courageous and, and tackle those uncomfortable conversations, but that we do so respectfully. And I think people respect that you’ve given them the respect don’t they, and that helps not just for the people impacted, but as you so eloquently, put it also is for the people that are observing you, because it’s not just who you’re having the interaction with. All eyes are watching, aren’t they across the organization to see how do you do what you do?

Gavin Snell

00:05:59

Yeah. I had to tell him a bit in my career way back, probably about 11 years ago, when I was responsible for business that was in was, was very exposed to a recessionary environment in the course of a relatively short timeframe, 30 to 40% of its revenues disappeared. And I, as the MD of that business had the challenge of trying to form a response culminating in amongst other things, that redundancy program, you learn a lot about managing redundancies and large structural change. And one of the things I learned was on a particular day where we had to make 80 redundancies, that’s eight, zero redundancies on one day from one business. We, you know, that’s a really testing time for everybody involved, of course, particularly for the people that are the casualties, if you like that. But I remember one character who I knew very well saying to me, after I had managed an accident of you.

Gavin Snell

00:06:54

And he said to me, and I remember the word separately, just to remember that there’s another 450 people watching how you treat this, how you treat me and how you treat all the others that are unfortunate casualties of the redundancy program. And I’ve always recalled those words, because what we actually did in that instance was that we kept in touch with everybody that had left the business. We report it to the rest of the business on how they were getting on with their job search. And I was really pleased to report that over the five months that followed the entire 80 people that had left us had found other other, and that was a really telling time for us, because what it said to the rest of the people, the business was we genuinely care. We want to treat people with absolute dignity and it really matters to us that they find new employment. And, you know, so, so you do learn through adverse situations, you learn a lot about both yourself and also leadership teams more generally. Yeah,

Kim-Adele

00:07:48

Absolutely. And fortunately, like you I’ve been in situations where I’ve had to lead to those redundancies and they are very telling that, you know, they do give us a great opportunity, but doing it with respect to making sure that the people leave unharmed, they know it’s not because of them. It’s because of the way the organization is going and that you keep in contact with them and give them that respect is hugely impactful. Not just to them, as you say, but to the wider organization and to you as a leader, because you can sleep a little bit easier at night, knowing that you did the best you can with what was a really difficult and challenging situation. Thank you so much. Can I take us on to a little bit about what’s your driver or your purpose? You know, what is it that you, that lights your soul on fire around what you do,

Gavin Snell

00:08:41

But what background and it’s relevant? I was schooled in South Africa. I, I was schooled during the peak years of apartheid, and I had a couple of experiences when I was in my teams, which I think have a telling on me to this day. And I witnessed some real injustices and prejudice to this day. I maintain that my driver is about making a positive difference towards bringing greater equality’s in the workplace and the communities in which we, we employ people and we operate. And also with the clients we serve, what that means is that I worry far less about results and financials and performance are far more about the things that are actually going to drive those results. And that is about people that have worked in and around. So I have a real Horace towards nepotism, prejudice and inequalities, and I’d like to think that wherever I’ve been, I tried to hold the strongest values and that’s tested at times.

Gavin Snell

00:09:50

It’s not always easy. In the current context, we’ve got eight different businesses. We’ll surprise, surprise. There’s some pay inequalities where we’ve, we’ve got, we’ve inherited situations where there’s actually inequalities in benefits and in pay, and we’re acting on that. But it also means lots of other things, whether that’s about, you know, how we treat talent and succession, how we award reward to people and many other things besides, but I brought it down to a really simple message. It is, I genuinely wants to make a positive difference towards the equality’s. The diversity and inclusivity was which we bring lots of people together towards a common cause. And in this case, you know, towards the work nest cause that, that, that, that I’m part of, and it, and it, it often tests me. I like to surround my surround myself with colleagues that are very diverse in their interests, their backgrounds. And in fact, in that, you know, creed color and everything else. But one thing that unifies us is that consistency of values and uppermost in that is the equality, integrity that we strive for. And I’ve, I’ve, I’ve moved away from roles and businesses where despite my efforts, I just don’t feel that I can really subscribe to the kind of underlying drivers for that business, which very often it’s about driving for results at the expense of those core values.

Kim-Adele

01:11:22

I live that. I think one of the things that, that I see a lot in, in organizations is that they measure the outputs rather than work on developing the people. And that can create massive golfs content in, in diversity inclusivity and how all of those parts are pulled together. Cause we’re not embracing people’s right to be who they are and to bring things their way. And how do we include those and how do we move forward collectively? So I love that, that your values are such a core part of who you are and that it’s demonstrated not only in how you bring to life your every day, but the fact that you’ve walked away from things where the values didn’t fit, because if our values don’t fit, we can’t be successful. Can we can’t be happy?

Gavin Snell

01:12:16

Yeah, for me, it’s not even a debate, but I’d even go further than that and say, business success is generally as a consequence of strong colleague engagement. And I actually have some data points to go to where disengaged colleagues largely because of poor management have actually resulted in clients leaving us. And so I can actually see the correlation, the relationship between business success or failure, depending on which way it goes driven by essentially colleague disengagements, it follows. If I, if I, you know, I’m a user, for example, about a particular service, the person I’m talking with or the client that, that, that person, or that person who’s responding to my support requests, if they re really demonstrate to me that they’re not particularly an Allan with the other, the service that they’re supporting otherwise, then it follows that I’m probably going to be less inclined to want to continue using that service. So it’s not complicated in my mind, it’s pure and simple. The reason why leadership teams are in place is to create, maintain, uphold, and even enhance cultural values that all humans want to be a part of humans. Don’t want to be a part of something that they’re not proud of, that, that, that upholds some of those core values that I touched on. So it’s not even based on just my own personality type, I suppose. It’s just based on what drives the best results.

Kim-Adele

01:13:42

That’s it, because we want to be somewhere where we feel listened to understood and respected that we, and that we can provide that also for, for others. We expect our people to provide that for our customers, but as leaders, we have to provide that for our people to make the chain work. And we need to make everybody feel valued, I guess.

Gavin Snell

01:14:00

Yep, absolutely. Right. I’ve often thought though, that in human organizations, in organizations, I use the analogy of a circle. I think that there are a lot of people that they want to swim metaphorically in the shallow end of the pool. They want their feet on the ground. They want to be proud of the work they do, but they don’t want to be the next sales director or the next managing director. They want to, they’ve got other things in their lives that they want to be fulfilled. And we’ve got a huge responsibility to them. You’ve got others who may want to test themselves into some slightly areas that go a little bit deeper than the pool, of course. But then you’ve also got people who wants to dive in the deep end of the pool, and they want you to create an environment where opportunities emerge and our job as leaders. And as many words is to, is to create the swimming pool, the water that people swim in that that actually embraces types. It gives people opportunities or security depending on where they are across that spectrum. So underlying, you know, that kind of trust, empowerment and core values is really important, but it’s also more than that. It’s also about understanding the sensitivities and emotions of why people come to work and it’s not just one size fits all.

Kim-Adele

01:15:10

I love that great analogy as well, because if we think about when we do go swimming, starting out that the amount of trust that we have to put in there is, is huge. Isn’t it, you know, go to this big, scary pool that we’ve not, we’ve not had to do before. So I left that. Could I ask, what do you think has been your greatest lesson so far?

Gavin Snell

01:15:36

It’s difficult, isn’t it? I think the kind of, if you want to pin me down to one, I will, but I’ll try with four. I think, first of all, looking after myself, you know, I think there’s stages in my career where I’ve burned candle metaphorically, and I’ve probably been less productive because of it. So, so that’s been important. I think staying true to my principles. And of course it takes time to evolve. What your principles really are 35 years of professional life, give you some sense of what those underlying principles are. I think also getting to know my limits. I definitely know that I assumed opportunities that really either were beyond me or I was doing it for the wrong reasons. And so understanding what my constraints are and what I am capable of. And for that matter, what my constraints are, is a pretty important thing is that the full sort of self-awareness picture that builds up there.

Gavin Snell

01:16:28

So embracing inputs, be it leadership development or psychometric tests that actually give me that feedback that I can get from colleagues. And I suppose the other lesson would be work hard on attracting people that are actually more capable than you I’ve had the good fortune. And I would say it’s fortunate, but I’ve also learned about trying to attract people with very diverse backgrounds and experiences, but also there’s more capabilities and that’s has acted as a driver for me in some senses, because of course it means I can’t kind of sit still, but it also means I benefit from that and encouraging their participation. I suppose, you know, leadership’s all about striking a balance for me, it’s that balanced and just send a herd in New Zealand for me, personifies a lot of what this brings is that really the best results come when you’re able to do all the right things to build and grow a culture.

Gavin Snell

01:17:27

But at the same time, not lose the fact that you’re actually here to deliver results. And whether you’re leading a charity or you’re leading a commercial enterprise, that’s trying to create wealth. I think that getting that balance right is, is the constant, I suppose, appeal of leadership. For some people, it may not be appeal. And there are definitely people that are, have been in leadership roles who don’t understand that there to try and strike that balance. But for me, you know, trying to be sensitive to and energized at the prospect of finding that balance is probably the thing that, you know, I’ve learned at the time is all about me and not all people are well suited to leadership. And so I had to also find out myself whether I was well suited to leadership. And I like to think that I did make those right choices founded on those kinds of principles that talked about before. So yeah, maybe that’s a long-winded answer, but I certainly think

Kim-Adele

01:18:24

I was hoping to land recognizing that you’ve got to be self-aware and have self care to put yourself in the best position to provide the care and support to the people that you lead. And I think the bit I lived as well, it was, you know, going out there and having the courage and his courage as a leader to recognize that you’re going to have to employ people that are better than you at different things for you collectively to be successful. But actually that, that means collectively you grow because some people might be amazing at particular skill, but don’t want to lead any. They just want to be a superhero in the thing that lights up their life. And I think we’re seeing that now we with organizations globally saying, do you know what? We’ll make some changes where actually your leader might earn less than you because we’re recognizing the skill you bring, but, and we’re paying accordingly for that. And therefore we’re taking away some of that hierarchy before and saying, well, you can, you know, you can earn the value that you bring in. And I think some of that’s helping us to, I guess, create a bit more of a humanized approach that we’re paying for the skill that we’re, that we’ve got and the value that people are bringing.

Gavin Snell

01:19:38

Early stages of my career. I worked in particularly one business starting to incredibly directive, male dominated culture. And I think, as I said that Iran, I came from a background where I’ve witnessed where people had disproportionate amount of power and influence on how other people’s lives live their lives. I, I feel like I’ve got an important role to play in all the roles I’ve worked in, but that role is not, you know, disproportionately more important than others. And, and in fact, I would say that I probably learned as much from watching what went wrong in that environment, in that directive, autocratic, hierarchical, you know, kind of offices on the third floor type of thing. We had to ask permission to speak to somebody to then ask permission again, I’ll speak someone else. I probably learned as much out of that, living in working in that and seeing everything that went wrong. And I did about perhaps other situations where it was more of what I look for now, largely because of the disengaging effect it had on people, because people just didn’t want to be a part of it. They were proud of the work they’re involved with the company they worked for. You know, they voted with their feet by launch.

Kim-Adele

02:20:43

Well, there isn’t, I mean the stats isn’t they that say is it, I think it’s 57% of people leave their boss, not the organization

Kim-Adele

02:20:50

64% would actually take a pay cut if they were given a different boss. So you kind of looked at it and go, that’s more than one in two. I mean that for me, when I first learned that was a massive eye-opener as a leader, that was like more than one in two people that leave, leave me. Like if that doesn’t give me the momentous to want to change, to want to continue to grow and to try and be the best I can be. I, I don’t know what will, because it’s that constant learning, isn’t it. And I lived the piece around we learned as much about who we don’t want to be. We see those leadership traits that were like, oh, I’m going to leave that one there for you. Thank you. As we do looking at who we do want to be here, we would live to aspire to be like, yeah. I said, thank you so much for sharing that. Can I ask you, I mean, it must be so many, but what do you, what is your proudest achievement so far?

Gavin Snell

02:21:52

Okay. I’d like to think that, you know, when I went, whenever I’ve left, the role that people have said, that guy made a difference. It made a difference towards bringing a greater fairness and equality in the workplace. And that as a consequence, they felt that they genuinely wants to be more part of whatever it is that left. So yeah, I’ve had achievements of taking on roles of, you know, driving trading and financial performance and I’ve taken on roles that involved integrating businesses. But they’re not the things that I would say are my achievements. My achievements are far better measured on in the context of I’m looking at things like colleague engagement scores of, you know, day-to-day incidents where people will will say, do you know what I love being part of this? It would be comments that I read on things like glass door, or it would be other things that would say to us.

Gavin Snell

02:22:47

And it’s not an egotistical thing would say that we as a leadership team are making a difference because I don’t look in this context as about me. It’s, it’s really not about me. It’s about us. And I think there’s a really important message underneath all of that, that, you know, but often you are found out when tough situations arise and, you know, acquiring and integrating lots of businesses at the same time, inevitably results in some tough choices that have be made. But I think, you know, my proudest achievements will be much more about how people have felt being a part of the businesses that I’ve built or the organizations I’ve been involved with much less than the results perhaps that we’ve generated.

Gavin Snell

02:23:29

So, you know, I, I, that’s what I prefer to be recognized for, or people’s thoughts often. And, you know, to me as a separate for the record that the results have only happened because of that culture that we tried to work hard on. And that, that that’s been really clear to me, but I, I think the other thing I would say is that it’s also about other first line, second line leadership teams in businesses building together. You know, I, I’ve worked in leadership environments that have been really powerful and that’s because more and more similar situations are dealt with in a, in a really consistent way across the teams that, you know, in leadership populations, you see broadly constance around those core values of equality, diversity inclusivity, about everything that goes in towards that around trust and empowerment. I’ve also worked to leadership environments where it’s not been that way.

Gavin Snell

02:24:29

And so I think another test and another achievement perhaps would be that broadly, we’ve been able to create over time, create leadership cultures that are broadly consistent. And so people, they know what they’re going to get, or people understand what they’re going to get from their leadership teams, regardless of where across the business they might live. And if I ask the question of, you know, what, what’s our vision, what’s our core purpose, you know, across the 70 or 80 people that might be in manageables, you can get broadly the same answer. So I think that’s another achievement because it’s only because of that collective force that we’ve been able to create the culture environment that touched on.

Kim-Adele

02:25:06

I left that, and it is a huge achievement because pulling together, you know, the people and giving them that consistency and, and that’s, and that trusted space, that compelling story. And I was reminded as you were, as you were chatting of the Maya Angelou quote, that I’ve learned that people will forget what I said, and they will forget what I did, but they will never forget how I made them feel. And that just seemed to hopefully summarize what you were saying there and what you’re driving to achieve,

Gavin Snell

02:25:37

You know, back in the early stages of COVID as a business, like every other business, we were challenged, you know, again, metaphorically, are we going to Batten down the hatches, save a lot of money on furlough. And are we going to, you know, in as many words, shortchange our clients, or are we going to flip this thing on its head and see it as a big opportunity? Fortunately, with the backing of our founders, we managed to convince them to do the latter and the people that did go on furlough. And there are good reasons why they dibs. We were adamant that we needed to pay them a hundred percent of their pay. They didn’t choose. So they never suffered for the people that remained. And, and we had a big focus around mental wellbeing. We have a big focus on counseling and support for colleagues, you know?

Gavin Snell

02:26:21

And so you get tested every day, every week, every month on how you react. And of course you have to be open to criticism. And we encourage that because if people are feeling like that, they can’t offer constructive feedback. If you want to call it that. So leadership teams, then, you know, you’re, you’re failing yourself because you’re kidding yourself as a leadership population, but, but certainly, you know, it is about how people feel. And I think the decisions you make will often lost, you know, so we said to everybody went on furlough, well, it might not have been your choice, but by the way, you’ve got to go to the bare minimum that the Thurlow arrangements pay. We would probably, we would probably suffer for that for years to come because of the disengagement factor that would have created. So yeah. You know, but of course there was the financial consequences of that because we had to achieve, you know, as a business live with the costs that were associated with that. But yeah, and, and, and it’s just an example of where you get tested in, you know, relatively easy thing is to come up with a value statement. It’s a hell of a lot harder. And I don’t give very often you’re tested on how you lived with those families.

Kim-Adele

02:27:33

It’s true because if you don’t lift them, I mean, if we don’t walk our talk, if we say that this is a value of ours, and then we go and do something completely different, nobody believes it’s really a value of ours because if it was, we wouldn’t be doing it doesn’t mean to say we don’t occasionally get things wrong, but it’s about saying when we get them wrong, we apologize missing, sorry, I’ve got it wrong. And here’s what I would do it again. So that people realize we are only human. It doesn’t change you, but it is not just what we say is what we do. Isn’t it? That people link into, this has been so insightful. I could literally talk all day. But if, if you had to have one piece of advice that you wish that somebody told you sooner, the advice to your younger self, what would it be

Gavin Snell

02:28:19

Well as someone who’s going an 18 year old son, just going to university. I find myself saying words like this, but look, I want see, reflect on the first kind of five years of my working career post university and think I was really hard on myself. You know, I was, I was working under the misunderstanding that the harder I worked, the better, the likelihood for advancements. And I didn’t really look after myself through that period of time. And I think other things suffer including relationships and, you know, my own health. So I think with good support had I been open-minded and I was particularly strong, I would have looked for more and more feedback and coaching and mentoring support. I probably would have made some different choices and I probably would have also been a lot more content with myself through that early stage.

Gavin Snell

02:29:09

I’d like to think I learned that at a time, I learned a humility and a way of achieving things that perhaps you have to do, you have to, you have to continue and advance yourself in your career to be able to do that. But I think I certainly would want to have been less hard on myself and more rounds and perhaps in my work-life balance. But I think, you know, in some senses also that work ethic has been a really important part of my success going forward, because I don’t think hard work is the sole determinants on your career success. But I do think for those that want to advance themselves, having a strong work ethic is an important contribution to make, and people will make their own judgements about that. But that’s been a personal belief of mine is that people want to work around people that are obviously committed, engaged, and energized at the prospect of success and everything that that contains.

Kim-Adele

03:30:03

And I loved that. I think that whole you’re right. Yeah. We want to be around people that give off good energy because we end off bouncing off their energy. I mean, if somebody is enthused and excited about what it is, you can’t help, but be a little bit enthused yourself. There’s really hard to be thoroughly disengaged when somebody clearly loves what it is that they’re doing. Even if you like, why good for you? I’m not sure you can’t help but be uplifted a little bit by that. And

Gavin Snell

03:30:35

I’ve learned a long, long time ago that it’s not just tigger types, who people want to work for Christopher, Robin, Gail, and many other character types are also can be very effective in leadership roles because of the authenticity with which they, they approach the challenge the way they engage with people. So I wouldn’t want to give the impression that it is naturally only ticket types that, you know, give off those vibes.

Kim-Adele

03:30:59

I think it is sorry. What I meant was it was more people being authentically themselves. Yeah. And I love the fact that you, that you chose Winnie the Pooh. Have you ever read the Tao of Pooh and the Te of piglet and they’re two books that basically they’ve dissected the Winnie, the Pooh stories and turned them into leadership lessons just about every single one of those characters. Because what I loved about it, I read it probably I share my age now probably about 20 odd years ago when I first came across, it was, it talked about being authentically you, so you didn’t have to be ticker or Winnie or pickle at all. It could be any one of them, as long as you were who you were and you brought your whole self to work. And you were honest because people want to work with that authenticity so that they build that trust. And they,

Gavin Snell

03:31:53

Yeah, I think that authenticity and self-awareness is probably the thing that I’ve observed in others that I’ve really admired in the way in which they’ve approached their leadership challenge. Because without that, they’ve largely tried to be something else will be someone else and people have seen through it. So I think that that authenticity that you put in is exactly right.

Kim-Adele

03:32:14

Oh, brilliant. Gavin It’s been an absolute, absolute joy. Thank you so very much. If you want to find out more about Gavin and Worknest, please head to www.worknest.com. And we will look forward to next time.

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