Authentic Achievements Episode 7 with Special Guest Grahame Carter
In today’s episode, I am delighted to be joined by the fabulous Grahame Carter – UK Sales Managing Director of Matchtech. Grahame joined Matchtech in 2001 as a recruitment consultant and has since progressed through the company to become UK Sales Managing Director & Board Member.
Grahame is an avid supporter of initiatives that encourage and celebrate all aspects of diversity in engineering and technology. In addition, Grahame embodies Matchtech’s commitment to promoting these sectors as a career of choice to future generations. He shares his journey and how he creates an empowered culture for his people.
You can find out more about Grahame and Matchtech at www.matchtech.com. Matchtech is the recruitment trading arm of Gattaca PLC an AIM Listed technology and Engineering Recruitment Specialist.
If you want to find out more check us out at www.kimadelerandall.com or www.authenticachievements.co.uk
Full Transcript:
Authentic Achievements Graham Carter
Kim-Adele
Hello, and welcome to this edition of authentic achievements where I’m delighted to be joined by the fabulous Grahame Carter. And Grahame has got such a wealth of experience. He works for Matchtech. He joined in 2001 as a consultant and has now progressed through, to become the UK managing director and board member. And he’s really passionate about making sure that UE support initiatives that encourages celebrate all aspects of diversity and embodies Matchtech’s commitment to promoting these and the engineering and technology sectors as a career of choice for future generations. And I love that you are really embracing that diversity and inclusion, and particularly in those industries that we know might have struggled perhaps historically, to attract people from a diverse background. So, Grahame welcome.
Grahame
Thank you for having the pleasure to meet you.
Kim-Adele
It’s a delight to have you. And then when we chatted the, the other week, it was just such a great conversation. So I’m really looking forward to today. So to kick us off, could you tell us a little bit about, about you and, and your journey so far?
Grahame
Yeah, of course. I’ll do my best and welcome all your listeners. And I hope you find this an interesting debate as we go through this. So a little bit about myself. I, I was born in Rochford in, in Essex and I stayed in Essex for 18 years of my life before coming down to the south coast, the university of Portsmouth. And as you can see from my physique, I did a sports science degree, which is held me in very good stead from Portsmouth university. But when I finished university, I like a lot of people. Wasn’t a hundred percent clear on the direction I wanted to go in. And I, I looked around, I did as a number of people do found recruitment as a, as a viable option. And I joined it. What was at the time, a very small organization on the south coast and, and more, more interestingly, and, and why I probably am as passionate now or still as passionate as I was when I joined that.
Grahame
When I, when I started my career here, I actually didn’t know what engineering was. I had an understanding of because of my Amstrad 64 K or the, my friends, BBC computer, what technology, what I thought technology was. But I also over the journey that I’ve been for, I really realized that I had no understanding back then as well of what actually technology recruitment means to work for a technology company. So year 20, nearly 22 years ago, I joined a small organization on the south coast. There were two sister companies, one called match tech and one called matchmaker. And as you can imagine, now, if you had a recruitment business called matchmaker and you are ringing up people at home from matchmaker asking to speak to their husband or their wife, it wouldn’t have gone down too well. So we, we changed the name to match tech and incredible journey that we’ve been on.
Grahame
We floated in 2006 onto the aim stock market. And, and we’ve been on a, on a journey since then with the organization. So the, the PLC is actually called Gatica and Matchtech is the engineering arm of the business. And networkers is the technology side of the business. So, and again, as I said, I didn’t the journey that we started on and the abilities that I’ve had and the opportunities I’ve had to grow up with that, that organizer have just genuinely been outstanding. And I, and I’ve been very, very lucky to be a part of it and, and its success over the years. So I feel very proud of what we’ve achieved, but also very lucky to have joined at the time that I did within the organization.
Kim-Adele
I love it. And what a great journey to, to have seen them go from being so small to the growth they’ve got now. And, and how many, how many people is it now that, that work with you?
Grahame
So I, I was payroll number 18 when I joined. Yeah, we had a maximum of around 770 staff across 16 countries, but the, with the pandemic where we’ve like a lot of organizations we’ve just had to streamline, so there’s around 550 of us. We work across all of great Britain, so all across the UK and we have offices in South Africa, Mexico, Spain, or we call it Iberia across those regions and also in America.
Kim-Adele
Amazing. So it really has evolved and changed so much. Hasn’t it from, from when you started out. And I love the fact that, that your background in technology is as good as mine eye. And I’m trying to still remember that book that you had to try and everything.
Grahame
Yeah, it was Indeed, indeed.
Kim-Adele
But what would you say has been your, the thing you’re proudest of in your journey so far?
Grahame
Well, there, there’s, there’s a couple of elements in terms of what I’m proud of when I look back. And when I started, I think you gotta be very, very mindful that it’s absolutely fine, to say that when I joined, I had a, a, a lot of rough edges. I had, you know, a, a, a very immature mark, but, but then I was, I was a young, a young recruitment consultant learning my way. So I think firstly, what I’m, what I am very proud of is the, the way that I have changed as an individual and what I’ve learned. And I’ve, I’ve been lucky enough to have some outstanding mentors along the way that are, that have really said, it’s actually okay to look back at the mistakes you’ve made and highlight those mistakes to others. Because then you get that humility and you get that realization.
Grahame
And probably a lot of the, and again, I, I say this with a degree of hopefully being very humble. I’ve got a lot of people within the group that would really run through walls for me cuz we, we do it together. And, and it’s that probably journey that I’ve learned and around that communication style, that everybody is different and everybody needs a, a, a slightly different Grahame Carter for, for what brings out the best of those and, and on their journey. So I’m very, very proud of, I suppose, the progression that, that I’ve I had a, I had a coach, a chap called Mark Norton. Who’s also on the south coast, a really quite inspirational individual. But he said to me, after the, when we started our sessions, Grahame, you will only get out of this, the amount that you are willing to put in and the amount that you are willing to change engine adapt.
Grahame
And it really has stuck with me because of the coaching and mentoring I do with some of the staff here, you are only gonna get out of it, what you are willing to put in and how bare you are willing to lay yourself to, to really make those improvements. So yes, I’m very proud of that. I’m also I suppose, to go from a journey, you don’t get much tenure with an organisation, you know, a lot, you know, a lot of the work that we do in recruitment is moving people within their careers. But yeah, I mean to be 20, 21 years, starting off as a, as a resource and a junior member of staff to now lead this organisation, it’s a, sorry, when I say lead, lead it from a sales perspective, I’m very fortunate and, and also very, very proud of that.
Kim-Adele
Oh, and you should be because you’ve been part of such an amazing journey and what I, what I love my Nan always used to say every day is a school day and it’s right. Isn’t if we, if we go into life thinking that we can learn something new every day from every person that we meet, they don’t have to be more senior than us. We can learn from everybody. And I love that. You’ve learned to share your vulnerability without losing your credibility because you do, when you do that, you create a safe space for your people. Don’t you to be able to be vulnerable, share their vulnerability and together you, you stronger because you are able to help each other. And I, I think that’s, that really comes out in the culture that you’ve built, that you’ve built there is that piece where you’re in it together. And, and when people feel like that they will walk through water for you or run through walls because it’s that mutual trust you, it’s not a hierarchy, it’s a team. And I think that kind of really comes out in, in how you talk about the team that you’ve built there and the way that you work together, which is amazing. You should be really proud.
Grahame
Yeah. We, it is interesting as well because I, again, as I grew up, I, I probably I’ve, didn’t do too much what I would, class educational reading. And the reason, the reason being is I, I wasn’t that interested in the educational side, but what, what, again, those mentoring and coaches have helped me do is you can do a lot of educational reading via leading teams, but you can adapt its to what you are interested in. So I read a number of sporting background books where individuals have gone in and taken what they’ve learned from the sporting world into a business world. And all of a sudden, of course it triggered a way for me to learn those leadership skills and is, and that’s what I’ve also said to people. It’s about finding your learning and what will drive you forward because some do have an academic learning capability, whereas others have a background it could be in sport, or it could be in, it could be any aspect of a, a of life, but there is also, there’s all literature out there that is linked into tho those aspects.
Grahame
So, yeah, again, that, that is something that you gotta be very open mind to be able to find what it is that really ticks those boxes. And then you can develop yourself as a leader,
Kim-Adele
I love that. That’s so true finding, finding the way that we can take on the learning. I remember one of the first management books I read was actually the Tao of poo and the Te of piglet. And they’d taken, we need the poo and piglet, which were two books that I loved as a child. And they’d turned them into management and communication lessons from reading their stories. And I sometimes share that night with people and they’re like, oh, I can’t read leadership book, might read this one. Cause actually it’s full of great actionable advice, but it’s dead easy reading because you’re flicking back into a little bit’s of a childhood story it’s so its it is isn’t it it’s how do we, how do we take that education and, and find a way that it works for us so that we don’t feel one that we’re forced to do it that actually we can enjoy it. And two, I think certainly for, for me and one of the reasons why we’re doing this show and, and kind of is to share stories with people so that actually they can take some of the lessons from people who’ve been there and gone through it that have had to smooth the edges. You know, we all start out a little bit rough don’t we? But yeah. I love a quote and diamonds were just rocks that did really well under pressure.
Grahame
Well
Kim-Adele
That’s
Grahame
Quite well. Yeah.
Kim-Adele
So I think, you know, that’s where we’re kind of hitting isn’t. It is to say actually we’ll make mistakes, but it’s not the mistake that defines us. It’s what we do about the mistake. It’s whether or not we own up to it, we acknowledge it and we learn from it and we make a brand new and exciting new mistake, but we don’t repeat the old ones. And I think that’s how we continue to evolve. Isn’t it. And if we can create that for our people, then they can, they can reach their potential as well.
Grahame
Absolutely. Yeah. There are again, just thinking about that state, when you say, you know, sometimes you, I, I often say when I’m addressing the new staff that come in, cuz we, we do still have a, a turnover as staff, which is, it doesn’t keep me up at night because it is a little bit of the industry that we work in. But we do have a staff turnover, I’ll say to the new starters when they join the biggest compliment that you’ll ever get from a customer or a candidate because there are two amongst, this is if they, if they describe you as the non stereotypical recruitment consultant, write it down, ask them to, you know, give you a testimonial or a statement and then bring it, bring it in to, to me. And we’ll, we’ll share that success because that’s exactly what we’re striving for here. You, you want to be consultative, you want to lead and you want to not be that stereotypical recruitment consultant. And with got an army now of people that are, are built in that same mold that really do want to be consultative and, and slightly different to the customers and the candidates that they work with. So we don’t get it right all the time, but that methodology and ethos lives in everything that we do. So yeah,
Kim-Adele
It’s being authentic. Isn’t, it’s being authentically who we are. And I think we, I know, certainly in my background and career there was a, there was a period where you tried to be like everybody else. Well, it doesn’t work, doesn’t it? Cause you’re not like everybody else. We’re all, we’re all different. And the point that I embraced being who I am and then focusing on what I do, everything became so much easier because it was it’s like, well actually I’m people aren’t wondering what doesn’t quite fit because when we’re trying to be something we’re not, I tried for years to be this well polished corporate being. And I’m not like a hyperactive puppy dog most of the time. So it wasn’t a good fit for me. And once I embrace the fact that just because I am quite hyperactive and I do like to have them doesn’t mean to can’t be serious and do a good job, I can do both. Yeah. And once you brought that in, you were able to create that space for other people to be authentically them. And I think that’s where we, that’s where we really start to grow and develop isn’t it because we, we wanna work with people we know like, and trust whether that’s within our team or whether that’s the people that we work with that, you know, people that we supply services to. And it sounds like that’s really what you’re pulling together in the ethos of, of the culture that you’ve got there. Yeah.
Grahame
Well, and again, I know when, when we had a catch up prior to this and, and it’s really interesting, but, and it brings us into that cultural element of what we do. You can’t, you can’t fake a culture. You can’t, you, you can’t have a false culture. You can’t tell people what culture you are going to have within an organization. Culture is built and it’s lived and breathed on a we every minute, every hour, every day, every week. And, and in everything that you do as well, when you are celebrating, when you’re delivering bad news, the, the culture comes from the people and the way that they feel. And, and I think that’s what we did on the south coast for, for many, many, many. We, you, you would say to people you can, you know, there’s always life outside of these four walls and that it’s not just one company, although I’ve been here for my whole career, but you can’t create that culture elsewhere because of the dynamics of people that come into it. So we, we, we don’t talk about it much. We know that the culture is important, but the culture comes from the individuals and their behavioral skills and the way that they interact with each other around. So we are really quite strong on that as well.
Kim-Adele
Yeah. I love it. And, and inclusive in letting people bring their experiences and who they are and finding a way to, to make that gel and work together. Isn’t it. And it’s you’re right. It is something that lives and breathes and evolves as, as, as we go through it, we can’t just go, oh, look, I’ve done it now. Big tick. Yeah, my culture done. Because it, it, like you say with every decision with every change where with every piece of activity that you, it has an opportunity to either build on or destroy what you previously built as your culture. So it, although it’s not necessarily has to be front of mind, it, it does have to be thought about doesn’t it to make sure that we, you see how that fits.
Grahame
This is not something I’ve ever read, or this is all my, a Grahame Carter from the heart. But I always say to people as well, if everybody that comes into this office puts everybody else first all of the time. And you think like that all of the time. And so you are always putting someone else before you, we are ne we should never, ever have a problem. And that goes from everything, from cleaning up the kitchen to making sure you’ve ti your desk before you go home to making sure you say good morning to the, the cleaning, you know, to, to every aspect of it. If you always put, if you always act and put other people first, and everybody does that collectively we’ll have a, we’ll have a, we’ll have a pretty good place and a pretty good environment to work in. So again, doesn’t work all the time and it certainly, isn’t a perfect world that we live in or an environment that we work in, but we get it right. Definitely we get it right towards that high percentage of the time.
Kim-Adele
And it’s about having the right intention. Isn’t it. It’s like, you know, we can have the right intention and we can still, we can still get it wrong sometimes. But as long as we, when we get it wrong, we look at it and go, okay, so wasn’t it, wasn’t our intention to do that, but it certainly was our impact. So let’s have a little look at that and come back and see how can align what we actually did with what we were trying to do. And we won’t get it wrong all of the time. Cause you’ve got that purpose. Haven’t, you’ve, you’ve created that what it is we’re trying to achieve. What, what it is we want to do is to leave everything and everybody better than we found them. And I think if we can do that then, or we can, I for that because we are perfectly imperfect beings, we will make mistakes. None of us, none of us are perfect, but it’s, it’s, it’s about having the right intention. Isn’t it coming back and saying, well, okay, we didn’t quite do that the way we wanted to let’s work out how we can make it better. Yeah. Better today, better tomorrow. So what would you say has been the biggest lesson you’ve learned so far?
Grahame
Who, that’s a really good question. Lessons learned along the way. So
Grahame
If I I’ll answer that, if it’s okay. In two ways, I think there’s a, we have three dynamics to our business, as I said. So the, the client facing side is one, the candidate side, and then our internal staff. And again, there’s a really interesting, the article that you can read around Amazon, which basically talks about the, the it to be really successful and driven. You’ve got to have a primary focus now within an organization like ours. When you talk about a primary focus, very, very difficult because without the customers, the candidates are no, no, no use. And without the candidates, the we’ve got no product to sell to the customer. But if we don’t have internal staff, then we, that, that whole model doesn’t work. So from a, the lessons learned from a customer perspective, I, I, I learn probably just a little bit later than I would’ve liked in my career that we’ve got two of these and we’ve got one of those.
Grahame
And, and, and it, you, you do need to practice listening. Listening is a, is a really, really key skill. So I think number one, when you are dealing with a, someone who wants to buy from you or the, the product that you’re selling, you’ve gotta obviously put the features and benefits over, but you’ve gotta listen. So lesser number one, take in as much as you possibly can never be afraid to ask more questions so that you can retain more information. I think so that’s less, that’s definitely number one, a listening perspective from a candidate side of things, the, the, the absolute is just never over promise. Never, ever, even if you are the, you see a CV or you, you speak to an individual and you are so confident that you’ll be able to do something with them, its that it really is.
Grahame
You get yourself in a bit of hot water. It, if you owe a promise, so remain calm, continually sell the, you know, in a professional way and, and say, we would love, we think we’ve got a good chance, but you’ve gotta be really, really honest and transparent given the thing. So, and so it is about, I, I, that really is for me, the being completely and utterly honest with that individual that we are dealing with. And then from a, from an internal perspective, I really do genuinely think that the biggest thing that I’ve done is I, I, the lesson I’ve learned is showing a level of vulnerability because it’s absolutely fine as a leader to say, I’m having a tough time at the moment. And I need a, I need a little bit of help. And I, and I think when I look back over some of the exceptional leaders that I’ve worked with, and again, another Grahame Carter line, but that probably will never be published anywhere else is I I’ve made a, a career out of surrounding myself with people that are better than me at every aspect of the job that they do.
Grahame
And, and it’s hard to recruit those people cause they’re very ambitious, but where they are better than me, a, a, a large number of the aspects of their job, or if not, all of them it’s, then the behavior elements that I work with them. So showing them my vulnerability allows them to know that there’s no pressure coming down from me or that they, they, I won’t stand in their way if they want to progress and move on. So yeah, that, that’s probably the, the biggest thing I can say to leaders and people that are working in organizations is to do not be afraid every now and again, to let a little bit of ability in because that will help you deliver the, the bad messages, but it will also really help you when you are, when things are going well.
Kim-Adele
I love it such great advice. Cause I think when we, we think about it at our base, I think I believe that all human beings want to be listened to, they want to be understood and they want to be respected. And you’re right. Listening is a skill. It is a skill. And, and unfortunately too often people listen to interject rather than listen to understand. And if you can suspend this long enough to listen to what they’re really saying, and ask more questions to understand more, you find the solutions, fly in whether that’s your client, whether it’s your colleague, whoever it is, because people will want to feel that that trust and respect. And I think learning as well to share vulnerability is an amazing skill to have because often leaders don’t share any vulnerability. You know, I remember being told when I started out under no circumstances, show vulnerability, you know, it’s like, you just can’t do it.
Kim-Adele
I was like, but why we we’re creating a space that people can’t operate at their optimum in. They’re gonna be constantly fearful that they’re gonna get found out or, or seem not to be perfect. And, you know, I am really similar to you actually. And I always recruit people that are better than me because that’s how I’m gonna learn and grow. And I just have to do my level best to make sure I add value to them in some other way, hopefully by helping them on the skill areas that I can help them with while they help me on the ones that better at. But you’re right. I think once we take out that competition, we take out that piece that says, you can’t be your best, cuz I’m gonna stop you being your best. And instead go on, be the best that you can be. I would love to see you fly and you know, I’m gonna be there championing you. It’s amazing the impact that has isn’t it on the people and, and the relationship and it’s priceless, isn’t it. When you see somebody achieve something, they didn’t think that they could.
Grahame
I couldn’t, again, we’re on a very, very, the same wave we’ve seen. There, there has been lots, you know, I’ve, I’ve kept in contact with so many colleagues that I’ve worked with to see them go on, to do a great things and set up organizations and leave the industry and still be successful. And again, if it is all comes down to those communication skills and, and the ability to you can leave organizations. Well, you know, you don’t have to do it in a, so it, again, all, all around. If you show that little air of vulnerability, you get that little bit of loyalty from those from, from everyone within the organization. So yeah, very, very fortunate.
Kim-Adele
It’s like kindness being a superpower, isn’t it? Because you are leading your people with kindness. You’re thinking about how do I think about them first? How do I think about clients first and kindness is yeah. Used to be class as a weakness rather than actually a strength. Because I think if we consider that and you know, it often makes me smile when we talk about soft skills, cause if they were really so soft, why do people find them so hard?
Grahame
Yes.
Kim-Adele
That there’s so many things out there that actually can’t do the soft skills. They can’t do the listening, the being kind or sharing that vulnerability maybe because nobody’s shown them how and nobody’s taught them. And, and clearly you’ve put the work in to do that self development to say, I wanna be the best that I can be. And therefore I need people to tell me when I get in my own way so that I can learn to stop getting in my way.
Grahame
But that, that Kim, there really are some E very, very easy techniques around. Am I listening well? And that is to have a conversation. And then, and then we, what we try to do here. And again, we, we don’t do lots of role play, but we do at times time, we record calls and we tell so that we can listen back to them. But listen, listening well is, is, is as simple as when you’ve finished listening, just repeating back what that individual has said to you to make sure that you’ve understood it correctly. And, and I think it’s one of those elements where a number of people will say to me, well, how on earth do you learn to listen? Well, and, and there are really, really easy techniques to be able to, to do that. And, and it is a repeating back of the, the information you’ve just listened to. Have you got it in the right context? Have you got it in the right? What for exactly what the, the situation that you are in. And once you’ve done that, all of a sudden, it’s a technique that you find yourself doing naturally because you listen well, and then it isn’t something you think about. So
Kim-Adele
Yeah, it comes in the way of life. Doesn’t it? I mean, when I was doing my coaching training many years ago, I had a supervisory coach. I still have one. And he had the, he had this one question he used to me ask all the time, which is whenever you’re talking. Cause when you’re coaching, you’re really just listening and asking better questions or at least you should be is like, if you’re talking, you need to ask yourself, why am I talking? Cause I should be listening. I either should be listening or I should be playing back. So I constantly have that going around in the back of my head when I’m talking to people, which is why I’m talking, helps me remember what my purpose is and, and try keeping myself on track with that intention and the impact that you can have as a, as a result, if you wander off track, which we can all do. Can’t we?
Grahame
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Kim-Adele
Grahame. I could literally chat to you all day, but I’m conscious. We’re getting close to time. So I ask one final question. If you could give advice to your younger self, would
Grahame
It be yeah. If I could give advice to my younger self, so I’ll, I’ll try, I’m gonna try and again, as I have done throughout this, I apologize. I’m gonna try and break it down slightly, but rule rule, number one on and again, so I’m gonna put this into a business perspective. You’ve got to learn very, very early on in your career to take the emotional, your emotional element out of any working environment and the, the, the easy way for me to describe that is throughout your career things, aren’t always gonna go your way and there’s gonna be tough situations and you’re gonna be in difficult situations. If you hear bad news and you instantly cross your arms and your face screws up, the, the, the audience that you are working with, or you are involved with know exactly, you’re thinking how you’re feeling and they’ve made it the judgment of how strong they need to be.
Grahame
So what definitely my younger self, it, it took me a very, very long time to take the emotional element of work out of work. And we’ve talked today all about that vulnerability. It, it comes back in, in other areas, but yeah, whatever the scenario we’re in, try and remain your, your consistent self. So you can put your argument back or your thoughts back in a constructive way without the, the client, the candidate, or your internal colleagues, knowing how you feel, cause I’m very happy. Oh God. So that, that the emotional element of what we do I think is really important.
Grahame
I definitely would’ve said to myself as well at a, at a young age, don’t take yourself too seriously because at the end of the day, I I’ve been very, very fortunate. I, I, you know, we do I’m a board member of a PLC. I’m very, very lucky. However, it is a I’m a recruitment manager from Essex who up on the south coast. So you gotta remember to always, yes, it’s important to people’s lives and, and number, number three, what would I do enjoy enjoy every single element of, of what you do for as long as you can. And again, I know I’ve had a couple of them today, but you, you wanna live young for as long as possible. And, and for me, it, it, it is about that. It is about enjoying the success of the people around you, enjoying the work that you do. And I think if I’d have, I I’ve always had that mantra, but if I, if I could have said that to myself, as I was coming into the world of, of, of industry and business and, and, and probably influence a few more of the customers and the other people at a younger age, I would’ve definitely done that. Cause if you’re not, if you’re not enjoying it, then you’re, you’re doing something wrong.
Kim-Adele
So true, I mean, I said, my nan used to say about every day being the school day, my granddad used to say live each day as if it should last and one day you’ll be right. So it really was in that if this was your last day on earth, is this how you’d want to spend it? And if the answer, no try and do something different. Yeah. So that is something that brings you joy because actually that’s what we’re here to do. And we’re when we’re in a place of joy, then we create a place of joy for the people that are around us. Don’t we,
Grahame
We have a, and so with, with the leaders here, we ask them all to do a three. We ask them to do a rolling three year business plan, but before they do anything related to the work related business plan, they have to, the very, very top of that profile is what do you want out of this? If you achieve that and it, and it doesn’t have to be financial. It could be a four day working week. It could be that holidays with the family. It could be start to family. It could be university. It could be any number of elements, but over this rolling period, when you don’t even start to write the business plan until I know what you want out of it as, as an individual, the cause if, if there’s nothing in that box, then what you’re doing it for is largely irrelevant. There’s got to be something you are aiming for and moving towards. So the leadership team that we have here very, very much it is about them and what they want to achieve. And if they know, and they’re clear in their minds, that the rest of can get behind, cause they’ll have the same targets as well. So yeah, it’s very important that you get that element right as well when you’re, when you, when you’re growing that you know what you want outta it.
Kim-Adele
So, so true. Thank you. So very much we’ve learned loads. I’ll make sure that how people can get in touch with you. We’ll put it all in the show note, and I look forward to chatting again, Grahame, but thank you for giving us your time and your insight. It’s been a joy.
Grahame
Well, it, it has been a pleasure and I hope everyone’s found it. Interesting. Thank you for listening