Authentic Achievements Episode 5 with Special Guest Fraser Duncumb

Authentic Achievements Episode 5 with special guest Fraser duncumb

In this episode, I am delighted to be joined by the lovely Fraser Duncumb CEO and Co-Founder of Wotter, a platform that gives companies the ability to track and improve their employee engagement initiatives. Whilst practising as a violin-maker, Fraser’s solitary experience in this craft drove his growing fascination with what environments make other people tick, and how harnessing them can improve their work, and, in turn, their life. Fraser believes that every person can become the most exuberant, talented, and productive version of themselves if they are only given the right conditions. Empowering companies to learn and replicate these conditions is the next step of a lifelong journey. To find out more please head to www.wotter.me

If you want to find out more check us out at www.kimadelerandall.com or www.authenticachievements.co.uk

You can see our previous episode here or subscribe to our YouTube

Full Transcript:

Authentic Achievements with Fraser Duncumb

Kim-Adele

Hello and welcome to this week’s authentic achievements, Hi Fraser, it is an absolute joy to have you. I’m just going to introduce you to our fabulous audience. So I’m joined today by the lovely Fraser Duncumb who is the CEO and co-founder of Wotter a platform that gives companies the ability to track and improve, improve their employee engagement initiatives. What I love about your story and we are going to dig into that is that you actually came up with the idea of getting involved with this when you were practising as a violin maker and realized from your own solitary experience, that you’ve got a growing fascination for what makes environments work and helps people really harness their power of who they are and how can they be the best that they can be. And that’s kind of driven your belief that every person can become the most exuberant, talented and productive version of themselves if they’re given the right conditions, which I absolutely adore. And by empowering complete to learn and replicate the conditions, you can actually recreate that and allow people to really have that experience that allows them to be their best selves. So it is an absolute joy to have you along, but to ask you if you’d share with us, please, a little bit about your journey so far.

Fraser

Yes. So yeah. Grateful to be here. Thank you. You know, it’s yeah. It’s, it’s an interesting one. You know, people, when they find out that I, that I trained as a violin maker and made violins and various other string instruments, it was, you know, everyone, I started such a romantic sounds amazing. Sounds amazing. The reality is not quite the same. The reality is it’s a sort of cold, dark workshop on your own all day, every day, maybe a friend might pop around, but really you need to crack on. So, you know, you just, so I, I found that what I, what I started to do was, was yeah, look at that sort of environment and whether it was the right environment for me. And the reason it all kind of came to an end was I realized I needed to be in an environment with other people.

Fraser

I needed to be talking to people. I need to speak empowering those people. And also, you know, letting that kind of empower me. So I had a stint in recruitment, which was, was fascinating, sort of, you know, great fit in many ways, me being, interested in those sort of environments where people were, you know, were working and learning and an existing, you know, we spend more time at work than we spend with our partners, you know? And so if, if, you know, hearing very honestly what people thought about their work, that was, that was the fascinating bit of the job or the other annoying things. I spent far too much time doing that and not enough time place and candidates. So I was successful, but I was not, you know, not the best recruiter in the world by any stretch. And so then I, then I moved into a, into a position as a, as a sales manager, working with an outbound team for workwear company, which was a really interesting position.

Fraser

It’s, you know, on the, on the one hand, you know, selling t-shirts with people’s logo on sounds far less glamorous, I suppose, than violin making, but actually it’s a fascinating industry. Cause people, people are so, you know, the logo of a company, the brand of a company, that’s, that’s what you pin the entire experience on. And, and so it was, it was really interesting working with people to, to give them the sort of best experience they could have with regards to sort of wearing and owning that, that thing that they, that they had so much invested some interesting. And it was while I was there, unfortunately, due to downturn and Brexit and various other things, the company fell on hard times and I was almost, you know, by nature of sales teams, you, you have the performers and then you have the people who are not performing yet, but they will, and you’re working on them.

Fraser

And, and, and I was asked to make some, my team redundant and I looked at my team and, and one member in particular, unfortunately, was, was in the Capitol. They were going to be made redundant. They just weren’t, they just did not deserve that. They were, they were trying hard and I just felt I just needed that little bit longer and what they didn’t need was the opportunity taken away from them now. And meanwhile, I’d been working on the idea that its sort of founded our previous we’ve previously called mycentervisemy. And that idea was about sort of allowing sales teams to reward their staff in a sort of much better way than, was generally happening, which is buy a crate of beer and put it on someone’s desk. And so I, you know, I was told that I had to make my team redundant and I just turned around to my, to my manager and my boss, the owner of the company.

Fraser

And I said, I can’t do that. I’m afraid you’re gonna have to make me redundant and stuff. And I’ll do that on the basis that this girl keeps her job. And, so it was a, it was a scary moment. Here was an idea that we were working on, you know, on Christmas table, the kitchen table with my, with my co-founder. And, you know, all of a sudden, within a matter of days, it had gone from being on the kitchen table to, oh my God, we just got an office and now it’s go time. And that was gosh, three years ago, three and a half years ago now. And that was a, it’s been a fascinating ride since then, but I, I suppose that’s, that’s how I got to, to sort of being sat in this room.

Kim-Adele

But what I love is, I mean, I mean, not to downplay, not only has that been three years, but what a three years? I mean, let’s face it, the world’s flown a few things that I’m sure, even if you’d have been given an opportunity to plan well in advance, you wouldn’t have been able to plan for in that, in that momentary, let’s just go for it.

Fraser

Yeah. So we, we, we were running my sense of values and growing and this sort of initiatives and corporate event management as well. My co-founder came from the events background. So we were, we are doing some awesome stuff. We were, we were hiring out luxury hotels and, and put vision days on there and, you know, making this sort of massive experience for, for companies. We were, we were taking sales teams to, to Miami, we would do is it’s amazing. And yet, yeah, COVID hit. And I watched, I was half a million turned into zero in one week. And that, that was an interesting experience. And one that I hope not to replicate, but it was then, you know, it was a sort of, you know, what are we, what do we do? You know, initially we tried to take everything online and, and we had some success, but found that everyone was rightly focused on the fear of what was going on in the world around them a bit more than they were caring about, you know, online yoga classes and that sort of, sort of thing at that stage, or at least trying that if they weren’t already doing it, I’m sure those who are already doing it to do even more.

Fraser

But yeah, it was at that moment that my, business partner turned round to me and said, I think I can build us an app. We’ve been sort of toying with this idea of working out. We were providing these incentives and these, these events we were asking, how can we, how can we ensure that these things are working? Like companies are spending a fast amount of money on this? Like, how do we know whether they’re actually having the effect that we want on, on people? And so we, we decided we wanted to do this, but we were at the point, at the time we were paying someone else to build an app for us, but that, you know, with everything sort of going the way it did, unfortunately, that had to come to an abrupt stop. And my business partner tomorrow, I said, I think I’m quite interested in learning.

Fraser

And I think I can, I can build the app. And I rolled my eyes at him and we still joke about it. Now. I said, no, you can’t code, coding is for coders. You know, you can’t how wrong I was, how wrong I was. And, you know, we’ve, I’ve always had this sort of obsession with learning. I’ve also always believed that coding was something that coders did. And so now we have an app and it was built by Paul, the co-founder. And then I learned to code, and then another member of the team learned to code, you know, we just bought some courses online. And that was how we spent our spent a lockdown. It’s just, just learning, learning, learning, and, you know, we’ve, we’ve been lucky to be able to speak to some incredible people in the, you know, in the industry, you know, ex-Google people, you know, all sorts of amazing people run past, you know, what we’re doing.

Fraser

And so we feel we’re on a, a pretty good line. And people have been telling us where we are with the case, that it’s just been a whirlwind experience. And it’s, I couldn’t at times I just want it to stop, right? Like every are times you wake up and the more you use it, it’s like, can, can, let’s just, just, let’s just stop for a minute. Can we just stop? And then, and then it doesn’t. And then I, I, I think to myself, I don’t think I could do anything else. Like this is, this is it. This is, this is why I get up. This is, this is why things happen,

Kim-Adele

High adrenaline rush. Isn’t it. When you know that you’re living your purpose and I get it, you know, there, there are moments, I think, in all of our lives where we’re like, stop the world. I want to get off just for like, just for a minute, I’ll get back on again, please just let me get off for a minute. I’m dizzy, but it’s when, what you’re working towards is aligned to your purpose. It’s something that you’re passionate about that, you know, I often say, it’s not just your why, and I love Simon Sinek and his, you know, start with your why for me, it’s not just your, why it’s your who. Cause sometimes the why is there, but now you knowing who you’re doing it for have gives you that extra incentive when things get tough to go, okay. If I had to say, this is no longer important to me, how would that land never lands well, when you know why you’re doing it for, so you kind of gives you that energy, doesn’t it to, to kind of take the next hurdle or to, to kind of brush yourself down on the, you know, half a million to zero.

Kim-Adele

That’s got to have been a, a very sobering moment to put it mildly. But I guess the thing that we know for most of the self-made millionaires in the world is a lot of them have been bankrupt. They made the biggest mistake of their life, but they learned from it. Well, they didn’t do it with say that’s, it tells it. And they were like, okay, this is where we brush ourselves down. It’s where we dig in and find some resilience. And it’s where we try and find something else. What we don’t throw the baby out with the bath water and go, okay, what bits can’t we do anymore? But what bits can we do? And what new ideas does that augment? It, sounds like you and your business partner were really successful in being able to get yourself into that mindset and that frame of thinking.

Fraser

Absolutely. And, you know, I think it’s, it’s the, you know, totally, totally true. In my case, bankruptcy was an option. You know, it really was an option and we’d, you know, we’d sunk a lot of money into the company. And we were just at the point where that, you know, that half a million lives look fantastic. You know, we won a year in, it’s such an amazing sort of position to be in. And it’s almost like you feel the, feel that the thing taking off and he’s just, just holding on. And the thing that, that saved me from that was, was the team. You just, you know, the group of people that we, we had around us, both, both Paul, but also the team we had at the time and the team that I’m lucky to have now. And just that, that pulled, it pulled us all through because it’s not me, you know, I’m, I’m, I’m one person I have, I have a limited amount of sort of control or influence here.

Fraser

It’s, it’s that, it’s that team. And, and the, you know, is, is Paul saying, all right, I’m going to learn to code. And then, and then it was Jamie going, oh, I’m going to do that to you then. And you know, he was, he’s went into, into web design. Paul went into the mobile design, I’ve gone into data engineering, which I’ve got a little bit of an interest in from a mathematical standpoint already. So, you know, it’s a, it’s a great sort of situation that you are just so, so grateful that I didn’t have to experience that that low,

Kim-Adele

But you own low anyway. But, but that coming back from it, my Nan always says, every day is a school day and God bless her. I’ve learned that she’s right. And I’m used to it similarly in lockdown, you’re locked down happen and I’ve got a five-year-old, she was two and a bit at the time. And you’re like, well, what do I I’d best go and learn some new skills. And I managed to get myself the reputation of being a tech nerd, because a guy I know who runs a tech company, rings me up to find out what apps I’ve found now, where’d you find it?

Kim-Adele

I was like, okay, because he went, it was a weird one really interesting conversation. I was like, I’m going to come up with this studio and you can stream it to multiple platforms. I said oh you mean like stream yard. There is one. Yeah. Yeah. So now he runs ideas past. I was like, I can’t be a tech nerd. I’m an ex hairdresser. It’s not where I fit. So I totally get your piece around. Why should it be me when I’m a violin maker and now look where I am, but I think it’s that passion and that drive isn’t it. So there must be so many things that you are proud of, but if I had to ask you to narrow it to just one, what would it be?

Fraser

I hate this question. I dunno, at the moments of greatest, greatest pride, I think it’s the, it’s the team, it’s the people, it’s what we’ve managed to, to achieve. And I hope they won’t mind me singling them out, but we had someone start last, last summer who had never had any real experience in, in the work world. Previously worked at a, a COVID test site and, and in a, in a bar, which is, you know, amazing things to do, but, but very different to working in a, in a tech company. And the person that they’ve became is incredible. Nothing short of incredible. And, that’s up there. That’s really up there. And I’m so grateful that you know, that it’s not an isolated incident. I was speaking to a chap in a bar one evening when I was working as a sales manager.

Fraser

And he said, what do you do? And we spoke and said, can I have a go, you know, have you got space? Can I have a go? And, and I said, okay, come in, come in next week. Let’s see what, see what you’re made of. And, and he became a top seller within, within a sort of matter of months. He just absolutely flew. And, and just that, that, that is the most single, powerful thing I have, I think, as far as sort of inspiration and the proud, proud moments, if we can, if I can do that to as many people as I possibly can. I mean, it’s not all me, don’t get me wrong, you know, that you did

Kim-Adele

No, but it’s great in that environment, isn’t it? And it’s the totally of what you’ve built. So that’s what I love about that is the fact that the bit you’re proudest of in what you and your team are doing is exactly what you’re in your team at helping other businesses to achieve for their businesses, for their people. And it shows us just that the art of the possible when we create the right environment for people, when we create that environment where they can be themselves, because I think, you know, we have unfortunately created a society of compare and despair. So we compare ourselves with everybody else’s airbrushed version of perfection and look at our own messy reality and find ourselves lacking. But the reality is we don’t, you know, I always say I don’t post pictures of me with no makeup on when I’ve been up all night with Scarlet, because I wouldn’t want to put that on the world, but we’ve, we’ve put out our best version of ourselves.

Kim-Adele

And yet the reality is we’re all a jumble of things that go well and things that don’t go well. And, you know, no, one’s life is just a perfect journey, but once we’re given the right environment, and I think a lot of that is around creating that culture where you’re allowed to share some vulnerability. It’s no longer a bad thing, cause we’re all vulnerable about something, but you’ve got the collective power of the people around you. That means that their strengths are probably in your weaker areas and, your strengths are in their weaker areas. And together you flourish and you grow and you spring to the run to go into coding or to do whatever it is but to go and do the things you never thought that you would go and do. So what’s amazing about your journey is that’s the ethos of the company and you’re living and breathing it within that company as well, which is just something you should be really proud of.

Fraser

Thank you. Ah, thank you. You know, grateful. No, it’s it’s I think, you know, I think, yeah, the, what Gavin was talking about in his interview, the, the idea of the sort of swimming pool and, you know, you’re creating the water, you’re creating the environment for people to flourish. And I think he’s, he’s really spot on with that. And I think that, you know, w we ha how do you kind of do do that, right? It’s, it’s a difficult sort of thing to do. And I mean, the first thing you’ve always got to know when, if you’re doing, what, what are you trying to achieve? And I’ve been saying for a long time, what I, what I really want as I walk in the door here, what I really want to experience, it’s almost like a crackle of innovation. It’s kind of like, what else could we w what if, what if we did that, is that thing, like, is that really as good as it could be?

Fraser

Like, does it need improving? Like maybe it doesn’t, but like, can, we can look over that. And, and so we, I suppose we I’ve, we’ve identified over time that really, that, that is a sort of, it’s the love of learning. That is the environment that we, we try and try and create. And over the years becomes more and more obsessed with reading and learning. And, you know, luckily I have a, I’ll have a terrible memory for it, you know, whether I remember taking my lunch in the morning, but I have a very good memory for authors names, which is sort of quite useful for this sort of thing. And then, you know, being able to, to say, Hey, this thing that you’re talking about, it’s really, really interesting. Now, have you looked into this, this is an amazing sort of version of this thing that you’re talking about, and by creating that, that love, that, that desire of learning, and then finding people who want that, you know, I tell people we have a learning fund here. So we put some money aside every, every month that just gets, it’s just a pool that people like, if they want books or they want a course or whatever they want, like, well, we’ll just pay for it. It doesn’t have to be relevant to the, to the company, if you, if you’re interested in it, go and just see what, and when I tell people in an interview, and that’s what we have, if their eyes don’t light up, that’s basically the end of the interview

Kim-Adele

There, isn’t it. Cause it’s got to be a good value fit, and I’ve spent years saying, you know, I’d much rather recruit for willingness and teach skill than recruit for skill and try and teach willingness. Cause it rapids, it could be older, but you kind of look like if you can find somebody who’s just got that desire to learn that, that dry even, and that piece to go, you know what, in every day, you know, my nan used to say every day is a school day and it’s true. Cause every day you learn something. If you open your mind and you learn it from every body. And I learned something from my little girl and from her friends, just as much as I learned things from great conversations with people like you, because they’ve just got perspective and a different way of looking at the same thing. And you’re like, oh, I thought that was interesting. But if I changed how I viewed the world, and then what does that open up as an opportunity for us to do something different?

Fraser

Yeah. So one of the things for me that I remember, I mean, Steve jobs was, was asked once, you know, how do you, what, what’s your best sort of advice if you want to be this sort of exceptional, you know, person types, Steve jobs is, and he says, if you don’t know what you need to be doing right now, let’s go and travel, just go and experience things because the people who achieve great things are the people who view things from different, different angles. And there’s multiple ways to do it. Like you don’t actually have to go on a plane. I recommend it. It’s great not plane the other end, but just by being open, as you say, like, you know, it’s that, it’s a choice. Whether every day’s a school day, ultimately learning’s a choice. And so being open to that is just, it’s just vitally important.

Fraser

I was very, very lucky that my, my mum used to work in China quite a bit, she was in textiles CEO of a textiles company and they had factories in Sri Lanka. And so she used to go out to Sri Lanka quite a lot. And in the end we ended up going as a family to Sri Lanka for all the holidays. When I, when I was very young and we’d go regularly. It’s an amazing experience. And what I, what I really remember thinking even, you know, in my sort of early teens, we, we have a fairly rigid idea of what works and what doesn’t certainly in the, in the west, in the, in the Western world, you know, this is, this is what works and this is what doesn’t, and this is what we should be doing. And this is what we shouldn’t be doing. And then you go to a place like Sri Lanka or like Thailand, or, you know, Africa, or, you know, any of these places and, and everything is totally different.

Fraser

Like everything’s the way people, okay, they’re still driving cars on a road, but the way they drive is just totally different. Like, it still works like society still functions. People are still human, like everything’s okay. And, and so being able to sort of shed that view that, you know, what we do is this, this is how we do it. This is how we’ve always done it. And I’m allergic to that statement. This is how we’ve always done it. It’s like, okay, fine. That’s irrelevant. Like, how are we going to do it now? Like, or how are we going to do it in the future? That’s far more important to talk about having that experience I think is, is I’m just really grateful that I’ve always sort of gone back to, to lean back on. And then we, I remember the morning of the boxing day tsunami.

Fraser

I don’t know if you remember 2000, we always used to fly out to Sri Lanka on boxing day and that year was no exception. And we were taking my grandmother and my grandmother called and said, you need to turn on the news. I don’t think we’re going to shrink to this year. And I heard my mum say, no, it’s even more important than we go now. And, and so we just got on a flight and off we went and we landed and it was terrifying. I was 11. And I remember, you know, looking out the hotel window and seeing the beach and seeing like bits of people’s houses washed up on the beach and for wanting to probably protect me, my parents, didn’t kind of let me leave the hotel for the first week that we were there. But then after that, we, we did a sort of tour around the orphanages and, and I saw the, we drove past the twisted track it.

Fraser

And if you remember that, and that experience has just, just life-changing too, to sort of seeing the devastation of a place that we’d grown to love, you know, hear the stories of, you know, like we just had a, like, everyone has tuk tuk’s out their, well not everyone has tuk tuks. And, and those are a driver that we always called, cause he was a lovely man and, and they’ve lost everything he had lost. His lost his tuk tuk, but it also lost his entire family and it’s of, and everything that he had. And he had borrowed a van from his cousin so that he could get back to, you know, back to driving and yeah, people are incredible in, in those sorts of situations. I think it’s important to I’m waffling. Now.

Kim-Adele

I so resonate. So,many years ago I went on holiday with my friend and we got stuck in a hurricane in Jamaica and it was a real eye-opener into human behavior. And it was something that I’m really, really passionate about because we were obviously, we were on holiday and we had a couple of days where it was scary and we were stuck in a coal bunker under the hotel. But, you know, we had a holiday that got a little bit ruined. It wasn’t kind of the end end of the world. And you know, for the, for the people that lived there, they lost family, they lost friends. And I vividly remember being at the airport, waiting to come back. They were now evacuating as the hurricane had passed. And some of the other holiday makers were getting really aggressive, very angry because their holiday had been ruined and know what they expected.

Kim-Adele

And none of the shops were open. There was no air conditioning and there was an Executive lounge and they’d gone in and they were really kicking off at this, at this woman. And she was saying, I can’t help you. I’ve got no clean glasses. If you’ve got a bottle, if you’ve got a cup, I’ll get you a drink. I can’t, I’ve got no other way of helping you. And they were really kicking off. And I remember me and my friend suddenly deciding, you put your corporate hat on and go, we do this for a living, right. And we get to go shake or calm the situation down. And when we did and we moved everybody out and we’re like, look, we’ll club together some money go into the town. We’ll get water. It will be fine. The flight’s coming soon. But yeah, leave this poor lady alone. We went to check with her, you know, was everything okay with her?

Kim-Adele

She didn’t even, she didn’t have to be there. So she wasn’t being made to work. And she didn’t even know if her family had actually survived. And what she was doing was trying to do the right thing. And as a result of that, got the brunt end of, of people that couldn’t see beyond what they were missing, but they weren’t guessing what they’d expected. And it was like this woman’s desire to do the right thing, desire to show up and do her job and to make things easier for people put her in the firing line. And we, we ended up, we had an amazing, amazing chat with that, but for me, it really got me that started me on my journey of really digging into psychology and why we do the things we do. And how could we change some of that so that we could be a bit more inclusive of each other and a bit more appreciative.

Kim-Adele

It doesn’t mean to say we can’t disagree. We should never disrespect. And it helps you realize the importance, doesn’t it. So I think, look, I think situations like that are life changing and are very humbling, very grateful to be able to see the world. I’m sure the same for you from the tsunami to be able to see the world from a position of privilege while seeing what, you know, how, how their resilience, how their community, how their sense of loyalty and family gives them the courage, the desire, the resilience, the drive, the compassion to just get out there and get on with it. And I think it for me, and it sounds like possibly similar for you that was, has been a real pivotal part in my life when things have been going wrong to go where they’re going a little bit wrong, but do you know what? It’s not all gone wrong. So I stopped my life. I started my family, all of these that are great. One of life’s levellers, aren’t they on, on kind of what’s important, where, where we should be focused.

Fraser

Yes. I was thinking back to, to Michael Tobin’s interview, where, where he was talking about taking out the idea of failure from, from life and being, just being sort of okay with it. And I, we, we have a slightly different way. I still use the word a failure, but I, but I make it very clear that it’s expected. You know, if, if you don’t, if you’re not taking risks, if you’re not pushing yourself, that’s then, then you won’t fail. Like you’ll, you’ll stick to the easy path, but you shouldn’t be doing that. You should be pushing yourself. And I think this is, you know, sort of for everyone, if someone ch Robinson said to me a little while ago, it’s, it’s a common phrase, of course, but it’s, it’s, you know, get, get comfortable with being uncomfortable. And at the time everyone, when these, when you say that to people, they go, oh yeah.

Fraser

Okay. I’m comfortable. Like I know it’s fine. Okay. And then, and then you sort of realize it takes a little bit of time. I think you keep thinking of it and you keep going and, and, and it’s just vitally important, you know, really like take this and go with it. You know, like let’s get really comfortable with being calm. Let’s push things. Let’s keep going. Let’s keep cause as we’ve established, you know, the risks that on, on, on us, we’re in a very privileged position to, you know, to say that, of course, but, but we all over conflate risk and the, you know, the risks on us, a minor. And as you said earlier, you know your daughter can we, can we create rather than say what happens if I fail? Like, let’s just say what happens if I succeed?

Fraser

Because if you know, the, my company’s goal is to build a world where everyone’s engaged in their work. Cannulae hand on heart, say that I’m going to do it. No, I don’t know if we want engaged in the work. That’s a big thing to do, but I’m damn well going to try. We’re going to keep pushing and we’re going to keep pushing and we’re going to keep pushing. And that is, is that that’s the fire. I think that we, that we need. And that, that really gets me, gets me going. So I suppose this, this is like the duality of, of, you know, thinking back to that experience in Sri Lanka and, and how, you know, understanding quite how privileged I am and, and quite what sort of atrocities can happen, but then using that to sort of ground this, this desire to, to, to sort of make a major change. I think that’s, that’s a, that’s a sort of interesting.

Kim-Adele

Yeah. And I love it. And I love that. Then your passion is to create the best world for everybody. However, they see it. And because art is, it has to be however they see it. And I get that from our conversations. You’re not saying everyone should live work, so we’re going to do work this way. You’re saying, how do we create an environment where work can be great for you your way while still doing what it, what it needs to do. I could literally chat to you all day. But if you had to ask, if you had to give yourself one piece of advice to your younger self, what would it be?

Fraser

Stay humble, stay focused and keep learning.

Kim-Adele

I love it. I love it. It has been an absolute joy. We will have to do it again. Cause I could just tell we have not finished digging out of this, but if people want to learn more, obviously we’ll have everything in the show notes, but am I right in thinking it’s www.wotter.me

Fraser

Yeah. www.wotter.me.

Kim-Adele

So people please do go along and see what you guys are getting involved with. I think it’s an amazing mission, which is just to leave things better than we found them Fraser it it’s been an absolute joy. Thank you so, so much for sharing with us and good seeing you again.

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